Indian Council of World Affairs

Stuti Banerjee: On behalf of the Indian Council of World Affairs, I welcome you all to this talk by His Excellency Jorge Rojas Rodriguez, Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs, Republic of Colombia, on the theme Colombia's Foreign Policy Strategic Global Goals and Advancing Partnership with India. We begin our program with welcome remarks by the Chair for today's event, Dr. Nivedita Ray, Director of Research, ICWA. This would be followed by remarks by Ambassador Victor Hugo Echeverri Jaramillo, Ambassador of Colombia to India. Thereafter, His Excellency, Mr. Rodriguez, will deliver his talk, which would be followed by a brief question and answer session, moderated by the Chair. 

May I now request Dr. Ray, Director of Research, ICWA, to kindly make her welcome remarks. 

Nivedita Ray: Thank you, Stuti. His Excellency, Mr. Jorge Rojas Rodriguez, Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs, Republic of Colombia, Ambassador Victor Hugo Echeverri Jaramillo, Ambassador of Colombia to India, distinguished participants and colleagues, a very good morning. It gives me great pleasure to welcome the Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs, His Excellency, Mr. Rodriguez, to Indian Council of World Affairs. I also warmly welcome Ambassador Jaramillo and all our distinguished guests, leading academics, experts from universities and think tanks who have joined us today for this talk. 

It is a privilege for ICWA to host Vice Minister, Mr. Rodriguez, for a talk on Colombia's foreign policy strategic global goals and advancing partnership with India. His Excellency, Mr. Rodriguez, brings a tremendous breadth of experience and knowledge with him. He has been a human rights defender, journalist, writer, and politician. He is a peace activist and was a Director of the Consultancy of Human Rights and Displacement for 20 years. He is author of several books and articles on displacement, migration, human rights, armed conflict, and peace building in Colombia. 

He has also served in important diplomatic missions of Colombia, including in Kingdom of Belgium, Luxembourg, European Union, and NATO. He has distinguished awards to his credit. He received the Humanitarian Award in Washington, D.C., for his work in defending and protecting Colombia's civilian population. He has also been conferred with an honorary doctorate from the University of Sucre, Colombia. Your Excellency, we are very grateful to you for taking out the time from your very busy schedule to be with us today. Colombia is a very important partner for India, as India expands its interests and presents in Latin America and Caribbean region. 

In recent times, both countries have witnessed a notable upswing in bilateral and multilateral interactions with several high-level bilateral engagements. The visit of our External Affairs Minister, Dr. S. Jaishankar, to Colombia in April 2023, and, your visit today for the foreign policy consultation is a testament to the interest of our two countries have in growing our relations through deeper understanding and engagement. 

Today, we stand at the threshold of a more dynamic and a strategic relationship. As important nations in their respective regions, India and Colombia could explore new avenues to deepen their partnership based on their commitment to Sustainable Development Goals and our shared values of peace and prosperity for all in the region. Your Excellency, we look forward to hearing your views on Colombia's foreign policy and strategic goals and how Colombia intends to advance its partnership with India. 

With these words, may I first invite Ambassador Jaramillo to say a few words. 

Victor Hugo Echeverri Jaramillo: Thank you very much and good morning, everyone. We are very happy to be here and very honored to be in this very, very well-recognized Indian Council of World Affairs. It's an institution that is rooted in the history of India and we are very proud to be here, especially because our Vice Minister is paying his first visit to India. We managed to organize a very, very strong agenda that brings Colombia even closer to India for a possible partnership, special partnership. 

So, we are very proud. You didn't come to listen to me today, but I just want to tell you that our Vice Minister will tell you why, under the Colombian foreign policy, life is the core of the vision of our Government regarding not only Colombia, but regarding all the humankind. 

So thank you very much for hosting us today and thank you, Vice Minister, for taking your time during the visit to exchange with these important academicians and students this important institute. Thank you very much. 

Nivedita Ray: Thank you, Ambassador Jaramillio, for your remarks. Now I have the pleasure to invite the Vice Minister, His Excellency Jorge Rojas Rodríguez, to deliver the talk, Your Excellency. 

Jorge Rojas Rodriguez: Dr. Ray and all the other distinguished participants at this colloquium, I transmit to you greetings from Colombia. I am coming here today with a lot of respect and a lot of expectations. Respect for what you do and what you signify at this conjuncture in world history and expectations because of the possibility of working together of two dissimilar countries that have come together. 

But first, I should give you some information which might seem to you to be strange. I want to present to you a Government that is different from the Governments that we have had in the last 200 years in our Republican life. For the last 100 years, we have had just one form of Government in Colombia that has been bi-party Government, a Government of two parties, which has been exclusive. Two years ago, this Government changed, and now we have the great responsibility of giving a new perspective to foreign relations. 

In this vision of international relations earlier, everything revolved around the North, that is, the U.S. And in this effort of integrating Latin America and the Caribbean, we have to recognize this fact. But in this vision, Asia does not exist, Africa does not exist, and the European Union works at the behest of the U.S. So this new Government proposed a new type of policy, which we call a progressive foreign policy. I do not know how I am going to explain what is progressive, but in general it means being at the helm of all the changes that are taking place in the world today, facing the challenges and being inclusive. 

So I am going to refer now to the possible content of this progressive policy. But before saying that, I want to say that in Colombia we align with those who think that the world order is basically unjust, anti-democratic, and that the Security Council is not democratic. And the themes, and also thus this progressive policy, will always find a stone wall. If one were to ask me what is the center of this progressive policy, I would say climate change. This can be seen as a kind of obsession. Our President goes to all fora of the world, warning against climate warming and what can happen if we do not pay heed to this. The President says that we have reached a point of no return. We have reached a point when there is a global warming of more than 1.5 degrees, but no one seems to be paying any heed. 

So what the President said in an intervention in New York was that what is important there are the wallets of rich countries and the bombs and tanks and their arsenals. He also said that efforts like the climate change summit in Paris were just rhetoric and we do not have the strength to impede what is going to befall us. The problem is that we really do not have any more time. I'm going to give you an example. We share the Amazon region with many other countries of Latin America. The Amazon is one of the most important reference points to conserve water and land on the planet. 

In the last few years, the Amazon is being burnt. Our countries can make major efforts to preserve this Amazon forest. But all the resources that we might devote to this endeavor will not make our efforts successful. Because, amongst other reasons, these countries are indebted. We are indebted. So the President has initiated a kind of exchange. He says, we will protect the Amazon, but you should waive off our international debt. But this has to be decided by the international financial system and the rich countries. 

Something similar can happen in Africa and Asia. We still have water, air, and life, but we don't have the resources to take care of the planet in our countries. If we don't do something now, we will not be able to do anything in the future. And this is the reason of our foreign policy that we should insist on all the Governments of the world to do this. But the world is busy with other things. In wars, for example. And we are contemplating what powerful countries are doing in Gaza and Lebanon. So what war is doing is not only killing civilians, but also preventing other countries from saving the planet. 

So this is our demand, peace is not what peace meant some years ago, today peace means safeguarding the planet. So there are certain subjects related to climate change that now show us the new game that is being played out in the world. Because besides peace, we are also talking about human rights, which are not just for the first, second, and third generation. Because now it's not just about social and political and civil rights, it's also the rights of nature. 

So today democracy means not just the right to go out and vote, but also to involve the community. So the question is, if the Governments do not do what has to be done, and if multinationals are only interested in greed, then who will do this task? So Colombia is proposing an international debate, a kind of mobilization that would put pressure on Governments to participate in this debate. This implies a diplomatic revolution. I'll give you an example. What are consulates meant to do? I'll give you an example. To issue passports, put stamps, follow bureaucratic procedures. 

And also, the people of the country, they take recourse to the consulate. Of course, this has to continue. So how are we going to defend this? For example, the rights of migrants. Do the consulates defend that. And the migrants which are created due to the problems of climate change. What Governments in Europe are doing is closing their borders to migrants. And also, the consulates are also being forced to work against migrants. They're not considered welcome. This makes the Governments even more authoritarian. 

So we have a lot to do, especially in the Global South in order to protect migrants who are migrants of climate change. For this reason, we wanted to come to India because India is the strategic ally in this endeavor. Because with India, we can start to discuss what does South-South signify. We wanted to find out what is happening in India where industrialization and technology is concerned. And especially what is happening in India as regards climate change. And we have agreed to make a strategic alliance based on climate change. 

You know that in the next week in Colombia, there's going to be a meeting on biodiversity. And a high-level delegation from India will also participate there. And at this meeting, we are proposing a universal declaration, which is called peace with nature. And we appreciate a lot that India would study this document and agree to sign it. And we are also exploring what India thinks about the energy transition, which is happening all over the world. And here, we see good practices and experiences, and we have a lot to learn amongst the countries of the Global South. 

We need to find many more allies amongst the South in order to talk with the countries of the North. This is what we have been doing this past week, thanks to the efforts of our Ambassador, and what we have done is a result of the friendship that he has created with certain bases of power here. So I'm very happy to be here. I came here in an anguished state of mind, but you have brought joy to me. Thank you very much. 

Nivedita Ray: Thank you, Your Excellency, for such a stimulating talk, and also for sharing your vision of your new progressive foreign policy where you have talked about the centrality of the climate change, and how important it is to protect water and land resources, and how important it is to protect this planet. And also, you have touched upon how the current wars are not only killing, but also impacting our planet. And in this regard, you also look at India, how to advance our relationship in terms of climate change. 

I'm sure there'll be a lot of questions for you in this regard. I would now like to open the floor for question and answers. I'd request everyone, if you want to ask a question, please keep your question brief, and also your comments, if any. Please raise your hand and introduce yourself, and ask your question and your comment. We can take three questions together? 

Participant: Excellency, thank you very much for delineating this absolutely fascinating way of looking at foreign policy, which is linked to life, as you have said. So since you've talked about climate change, I was also looking at the fact that recently, President Petro has brought out this decree sanctioning authority to the indigenous people in Colombia, which, of course, is the way we look at it, a very, very big step towards what you called peace with nature. But I was wondering that with such a long history of extractivism, how are you going to actually and such interests of multinationals involved in this extractivist history, is it going to be easy to give this kind of authority for land use and rulemaking to the indigenous authorities? 

Ambi: Thank you so much for your address. I am Ambi, a Research Associate here. I'm leading a Center called Migration, Mobility and Diaspora Studies that we have here at the Council. In your address, of course, you spoke about migration and you've worked on it so much. As a matter of fact, even Colombia is right now the Chair for Global Forum on Migration and Development. So of course, in light of that, I want to ask a more region-specific question that how do you see the developments in Venezuela? Colombia hosts the largest Venezuelan migrants, and of course, that is a cause of tension in relations. So do you think that a regional approach can be reached? And how do you see Colombia is working towards that? Thank you. 

Nivedita Ray: Yeah, next question. Avni, yeah. 

Avni Sablok: Thank you, Excellency, for your address. I'm Avni Sablok from Indian Council of World Affairs. My question centers around the Global South. So Colombia and India both are members of the Global South. And Colombia was a part of the Voice of the Global South Summit that was organized by India. In this context, what are the areas of cooperation that both the countries can come together on, initiate, and work towards the development of the Global South? Thank you. 

Jorge Rojas Rodriguez: I like the concept of putting life at the center of foreign policy and imagine that is a matter, which will have a correlation with diplomacy and with the people. This is a complete challenge and we do not know, as of now, how to face it. Perhaps we can analyze the strength of social movements and how they can make some impact on the policies of Governments as regards climate change. This will not be easy because those who believe that fossil fuels have a validity and that they ensure the accumulation of capital are still there. 

For example, there are forces in the US that are trying to convince us that even if gasoline is finished, we can break rocks in order to extract the last drops of gasoline and this is a sign of blind greed. And then there is another hypothesis that says that the energy transition requires energies that, while they are not renewable or clean energies, will be needed for that transition. And then there's another hypothesis that even though in this energy transition, what we really need are renewable energies, but yet they believe that any kind of energy should be possible and here they are referring to gasoline and biofuels. 

India is also exploring these options, but these options are still of a fossil economy. But our challenge is to produce renewable energy. And the technological capacity of India is very interesting to us because we think that in Colombia, we can use this technology to produce renewable energy. 

Now I will make a mention of this democracy of peoples. In this progressive policy in our ministry, we have included a kind of what is called flying public policy or of big cats, feminine, sorry. The exercise is simple. If we look at each other today, we would realize that all of us are not men. I would add one thing more and not all of us have the same skin color. So, to say, this is what we mean by democracy of peoples, we need to recognize what we are. We are women, we are indigenous people, we are of African-American origin, and thus we have, for example, our representative at the UN is an indigenous person, and also, we have people of African descent amongst our ministers. 

And so, the hypothesis of the Colombian Government is that if the Government on its own does not do this, the people will do this. Amongst other things, because there is really no other alternative. And amongst other things, because we really do not have time. Someone has asked about migrations from Venezuela. We have seen the arrival of 3 million Venezuelans to Colombia. The migrations are a symbol of our times. Venezuela received, for example, in the 19th century, 5 million Colombians due to the violence in our country. 

We have guaranteed the rights of Venezuelan people in our country. But also, we have seen an exhaustion of our resources, and we are seeing humanitarian problems in Colombia. And not just due to the Venezuelan people. You know that there is a forest that divides South America from Central and North America, which is called the Darien Forest. It is 5,700 kilometers of very dense forest, difficult to cross. 500,000 migrants are crossing from there every year looking for the road to the US. And people say they are Venezuelans. But there are other nationalities there as well, 92 nationalities. 

From there, Africans, Asians, Latin Americans are passing through, and this shows the globalization of migration. They are fleeing poverty, violence, but they are also fleeing the natural disasters caused by climate change. And they are going towards countries who do not want them. And there are right-wing parties there which are using xenophobia to grow. This can happen in the US and in Europe. And this is one of the greatest challenges that we are facing. Thank you. 

Devika Mishra: Thank you so much for your lecture. We were sitting outside and we kept the door a little open in listening to you. My name is Dr. Devika Mishra I teach Latin American politics at OP Jindal University. And those of us who have been studying what's happening between Latin America and India for the last several years, there is a hypothesis that tentatively from the Indian side we are kind of proposing, which is that there is a big change in how partner countries in Latin America view India post-pandemic. So how would you say the view of India for Colombia has changed? How do you see the relationship maturing? And once again, thank you for your address. 

Aparajita Pandey: Good afternoon, Your Excellency. I am Dr. Aparajita Pandey. I am from Amity University. I teach defense and strategic studies. You mentioned in your lecture that while Colombia does welcome migrants from Venezuela, there is a problem of environmental refugees around the world. And humanitarian aid is important, believe me. I do agree with that. There is also a very real question about aid versus resource management. How do you plan, or how does Colombia think that question could be answered? Because at this moment, it seems like we are at an impasse, where countries must save their limited resources for their own population. And that is also one of the reasons that is also used to explain away xenophobia, of course. So what are your views on that? Thank you. 

Nivedita Ray: Yeah. One question in the back here. If you want, I'll just give you next chance. Let's see if we have the time. 

Kuldeep Ojha: Namaste, Your Excellency. Thank you for this insightful address. My name is Kuldeep Ojha, and I am a PhD scholar at Jawaharlal Nehru University, working on environmental governance in Central America. Sir, as you mentioned in your address, South-South cooperation. So my question is, how does Colombia assess the role of South-South cooperation in fostering multilateralism and peace-building efforts, as you mentioned, Gaza War and all? Thank you, sir. 

Jorge Rojas Rodriguez: The great challenge is to identify the strategic alliance and the content of the strategic alliance that we have built between Colombia and India. The emphasis should be on identifying South-South cooperation as regards climate change. So we have to decide what we want to achieve. We have many challenges as regards trade, energy, migration, global security. But we want to show the world that Colombia and India can work together in the field of climate change and thus get more allies in Asia, Africa, Latin America. 

I haven't heard the word BRICS here. I take this opportunity to ask you that do you think that BRICS is the bloc through which we can work? Perhaps the Ambassador can answer this question. What does humanitarian aid mean for migrants? 

The Ambassador asked me when we were coming here when two children were asking for money and the Ambassador asked that should we give these children money or should we wait for the State to do that? Should we take humanitarian aid from the US and use it for the Venezuelan refugees or should we wait that Venezuela set its house in order and Colombia as well? Do you know what is happening to the migrants of the Mediterranean who come from Africa and Asia? Do you know what is happening on the border between the US and Mexico at this moment? Should we raise walls or construct bridges? So these are challenges that we should think about in spaces like these, where you all can give your comments on what we are going to do with global challenges. 

The same thing also concerns drug trafficking. But in the end, I have to say that I'm surprised because yesterday we went to an institute in India that works on Artificial Intelligence. So we're also going to ask people in Artificial Intelligence about these crucial questions for humanity. What I most liked about this institute was that it was not just a technical engineering institute, but also one that dealt with the crucial questions of humanity. So there we saw young mathematicians, engineers, who are also giving their practical advice to industries. 

Besides this, there was a faculty of humanities, philosophy, sociology. And also, they are training young people to think in this way. Of course, I'm not saying that we should leave the practice of international relations to Artificial Intelligence. What I'm saying is that it is a reality in the field of international relations to solve problems like this. 

Nivedita Ray: Thank you, Excellency. Okay, we have three more questions. Okay, we can take four questions at a go. Okay, Manjiri? 

Manjiri: Thank you, Minister, for that insightful lecture. And I'm really glad that you spoke about Artificial Intelligence, because my question is related to that only. You mentioned about your Government's approach towards and how we have proposed a new progressive foreign policy. So in this progressive foreign policy, where does technological advancement stand? And in that context, because you know like Artificial Intelligence is the buzzword today, and it is going to be ruling when it comes to the Fifth Industrial Revolution. So in that context, where do you see Colombia's stand on Artificial Intelligence? And if so, because you talked about Global South cooperation as well, there is an initiative by the Global South which is called as GPAI, Global Partnership on Artificial Intelligence. So, do we see that in future, Colombia will join this organization as a partner to India and the other Global South countries? Thank you. 

Participant: Thank you, Your Excellency, for raising such important questions. I think very significant. My question is related to China. I think I believe Colombia signed a strategic partnership in 2023 with China. So I just wanted to know the focus of that partnership. Does it include climate change? 

Abhishek: Thank you, Excellency. I'm Abhishek. I work with the think tank ORF. And your remarks were very interesting and enlightening. My question is with regards to debt restructuring. So you mentioned that, that was a major issue which you kind of juxtaposed in comparison to the States role in doing more on climate change. So have you had discussion with India because that was a crucial pillar of India during the G20 Chair? Is there any way you are thinking of working with India for debt restructuring programs as part of South-South cooperation? Thank you. 

Nivedita Ray: Last question. We can have it over to you later. Please give the mic. 

Dibakar Deya: Thank you for the address, Your Excellency. I'm Dibakar Deya. I'm a PhD scholar. My question was that in light of the fact that Colombia and India are both viewed as the new alternatives for possible global supply chain hubs, and oil and coal being one of the major exports of Colombia, do you think that there will be challenges for Colombia to rebrand itself or change its nation brand as a champion of Sustainable Development Goals in the coming years? Thank you. 

Jorge Rojas Rodriguez: So the dialogue is becoming more difficult. Because the questions are very intelligent, but about the answers, I don't know. We are just regulating right now the mechanisms of Artificial Intelligence in Colombia. But in this debate also there are people who say, let us leave this matter to the market. This can be very dangerous. For example, leaving the matter to Governments. This is even more dangerous. We are just starting right now. The last year European Union made a law on Artificial Intelligence. But I am interested that we think of a South-South alternative. 

For this reason, we visited this center in India. But do we have the resources or are we again going to depend on the North to tell us what our intelligence is all about. We hope that the next meeting of the BRICS also includes the issue of Artificial Intelligence. Because as you have said, it is a part of the politics of the world. 

About China, we have a policy of relations with all countries. We are making a greater effort towards the Indo-Pacific region. And we have had important agreements with South Korea, Philippines, with India. And our Minister was in China last week. We are exploring the possibility that we enter the Silk Road Belt. But we have a problem here, we have to find out what are the energies that China uses. They are interested in many things, but of course, what stands out are their trade interests, commerce interests. And the discussion with China on climate change is very contradictory. 

Is China a part of the Global South for climate change themes? I do not know. And India, our greatest exports from Colombia to India are mining and energy products. We still export coal. And we have no other option because it forms part of our economic base. But I could say that between India and Colombia, we have agreed to diversify our exports. There always emerges the question till what extent will this gradualism grow? We are diversifying into foodstuffs, food security, technology, tourism, but we have little time. 

A lot of reflections come to my mind after this conversation and I think we should continue these kind of exchanges more often. So I thank you for your time and patience and for your interest in this debate, as I said earlier, I came with a lot of expectations and interest in order to learn more from your experiences. 

Nivedita Ray: Thank you so much your Excellency for sharing such deep insights on the subject and also responding so passionately to all the questions that have come from various faculties who have participated here from various universities and think tanks. We find it very useful. I'm sure all the participants have found it very useful. With this, I think we had a very, very stimulating session and we look forward to such dialogues in the future. 

With this, I would hand over to my colleague to end this session. 

Stuti Banerjee: Thank you so much. On behalf of the Indian Council of World Affairs, I would like to express our gratitude to His Excellency Mr. Rodriguez, Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs, Republic of Colombia, for taking time out of his very busy schedule to deliver this talk. I take this opportunity to express our thanks to the Embassy of Colombia in India for extending their full support to us for this event. And I'm very grateful to the members of our audience for their participation. Thank you so much. Please join us for tea in the foyer outside. We would also take this opportunity to give a small token of our gratitude to His Excellency. Thank you.

Nivedita Ray: I'm not going to say what is inside, but it smells of coffee.